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Distance from accumulator to calorilifier about 10 feet, distance from cold galley tap T off to accumulator about 4 feet. Calorilifier 55 litre, accumulator can't remember but normal blue job from midland. Did not fit a NRV.

So a 15 mm pipe run from the water tank ...off this came the galley cold ..then the shower cold ...then accumulator... then bathroom basin cold and then the vertical calorilifier.

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So if we assume that there is 2 litres of expanded water and an 8 litre expansion vessel, the volume of air after expansion will be 6 litres.

If your home has a water pressure regulator, it should be located near the main shut-off valve. The PRV should be located directly next to the valve. If you are unable to locate your valve, check your basement, garage, or downstream from your water meter if your home has one. If you live in a region with a cold climate, your valve will be located in a warm area to prevent freezing. Odd construction may cause the valve to be installed in an unusual place. If you cannot find the shut-off valve in any of these locations, your home inspection report will list its location. If your home receives water from the city lines, you most likely have a pressure regulator already installed.

But if NRV is fitted then exp vessel is needed between NRV and PRV to prevent hydraulic locking which would open PRV whenever hot water expands slightly. Instead of NRV I have installed an extra length of cold water inlet pipe to accomodate expansion, works well, simpler and more reliable than NRV. I find that two 5lt accumulators set at same pressure (2x50lt calorifiers) has worked very well for 4 years without any pressure check or adjustment

I guess we got lucky....and a few factors may have helped here...... A longish distance from galley tap to calorilifier (14 feet), a vertical calorilifier, only heating water to 60 degrees f (old engine and setting thermostat low) , and a low pressure shureflow (approx 20 lbs per sq inch not the 30 lbs sq inch one). We also dose the integral water tank regularly with purifier.

I took the question to be about adding an expansion vessel to the domestic hot water from the calorifier, to avoid water being ejected through the PRV as the system is heated.

Re-running the equation, the pressure inside the vessel will increase to 45 x 3.3 = P2 x 2.0 = 74 psia = 59 psig which will cause the PRV to open widely.

Therefore at pump cutout pressure, 30 psi, the accumulator will contain about 2.5 litres of water. This seems to allow about a litre to be drawn off before the cut-in pressure of the pump is reached and the pump restarts.

Is there anyone out there who can tell me how I should size an expansion tank on my hot water system. I have 2 twin coil calorifiers at 40 lt each connected (or will be!) in series. Any help is gratefully received as always.

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The pressure also needs to be set BELOW the PRV pressure (which is usually around 42psi) otherwise the PRV will still blow as the water expands. Therefore the expansion vessel pressure needs to be set somewhere in the range 30 - 42 psi.

This is because (as the maths shows) the optimum set pressure for the 2 units is very different, ~15psi for the accumulator and ~30psi for the expansion tank.

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General water pressure regulators start at around $60, while more expensive options can cost multiple hundreds of dollars. If you wish for a plumber to install your regulator for you, the installation will cost around $350. While this may seem expensive, the lack of a pressure regulator can cost you thousands of dollars in water damage if your home’s water pressure is too high.

This is because (as the maths shows) the optimum set pressure for the 2 units is very different, ~15psi for the accumulator and ~30psi for the expansion tank.

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Shouldn't they be pre charged to a pressure higher than your water pump can put out, so that the pump isn't capable of using them as another accumulator.

A water pressure regulator, also known as a pressure-reducing valve (PRV), is a valve that reduces water pressure as it passes into a home. When water enters a home through the main water line, its pressure is typically too high for the home’s plumbing to handle. Pipes and water-reliant appliances that experience high water pressure can deteriorate over time. A PRV protects a home’s water systems from damage caused by constant high water pressure.

Without a PRV, a home’s pipes are subject to constant strain that deteriorate them over time. This can cause cracks to form in the pipes, eventually leading to water damage in the home. In homes with high water pressure, regulators are essential to keeping pipes and appliances running smoothly. Installing new plumbing or repiping your home costs thousands of dollars. It is also a very disruptive inconvenience, so addressing elevated water pressure before it damages your plumbing will ultimately save you money and hassle.

Of course that's true but, if you are able to follow the maths, you will see that the required size of a combined unit would be very large (>10 litres) in order to do an effective job as both expansion tank and accumulator. This precludes its being fitted under a sink in the galley in most cases.

Approximately 8 litres per 60 litres of calorifier, so about a 10 litre expansion tank for 2 x 40 litre calorifiers combined.

If you mean you have the extra length tee'd off the main line and this extra length is full of air (which gets compressed) then you will need a section of 15mm pipe that is 13 metres long to accomodate 2 litres of expansion!!!!

Chris has calculated this from a theoretical viewpoint, which I accept, although practical experience by several people seems to indicate you normally don't need as much as the physics and maths might imply.

The vessel will be initially empty with a pressure of 15psig (30psia) in it. After the pump cuts out the inside pressure will be 30psig (45psia)

This calculator is designed for incompressible liquids and the output values volume flow are an uncorrected flow rate.

A bad water pressure regulator can cause water to wreak havoc on your plumbing, so knowing the early signs of a bad regulator and taking preventative action before damage can be done are important in maintaining the health of your home. If you see any of the below symptoms in your home, your regulator may need to be replaced.

The result is interesting because it shows that with most pumps, which are set at about 30psi (gauge) cut-off, the PRV may still just blow if the water expands by its maximum. That's why I always turn my pump cut-off pressure down to about 27psi.

Kayak are you asking about the dometic water (hot water which comes out of your tap) or the heating water (water which is heated by boiler/engine/fire and runs through the coil in the colorifier.

When a pressure regulator breaks, it is unable to lower water pressure as it enters the home. As a result, you may notice water pressure that is much stronger than normal. Before giving up on your current regulator, you can try to lower its pressure by adjusting its external screw. If this adjustment does not solve the problem, your PRV likely needs a replacement.

Building code requires homes that receive water with pressure greater than 80 PSI have a water pressure regulator. A home’s water pressure should stay in the range of 40 to 60 PSI. You can test your home water pressure easily with a pressure gauge with a garden hose adapter. If your home receives water from a city water system, your water pressure fluctuates throughout the day. Instances where there is sudden high demand for water, such as firefighting, cause water pressure to dip and rise in a water line. The use of a PRV can help steady these fluctuations.

This is a topic that I followed with interest when it first appeared. I followed all the recommendations and ordered direct from surecal. To allow for the expansion of my horizontal 65 litre tank to the formula of pythagerus squared x the inside leg measurement of grey squirrel the product arrived and I couldn't find any space in the forkin engine room!!!! Throw away all the calcs get an eight litre one as the calorifier has lasted twice as long as its predecessor so it must be doing the job within the limitations I have.

Using one tank to try to do both jobs also means that one cannot fit an NRV between the calorifier and the cold water supply. This can lead to warm water coming out of the cold tap in the galley, as well as a possible issue with bacterial growth in the warm water. I know nothing technically about the bacteria but it does come up every time.

City water fluctuates in pressure depending on demand for water elsewhere. As a result, your home’s water pressure will be unstable if the regulator is not working. If you are unable to use multiple water outlets at the same time because of low water pressure, your PRV may be the culprit.

Water pressure regulators contain an internal diaphragm and spring that water must travel through before entering a home’s plumbing. The higher the water pressure that enters the regulator, the greater the pressure put on the spring. This causes less water to pass through the regulator, effectively reducing the water pressure as it enters the home’s pipes. The water pressure allowed into the home can be changed by adjusting the tension of a screw on the exterior of the regulator.

Shouldn't they be pre charged to a pressure higher than your water pump can put out, so that the pump isn't capable of using them as another accumulator.

If you have little to no water pressure in your home, your water pressure regulator may be the cause. If you have pressure with cold water and not with hot, then your water heater is most likely the cause, not the regulator. However, if both hot and cold yield the same low water pressure, you will need to replace your PRV.

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The bigger the calorifier(s), the bigger that potential expansion is, and hence the larger an EV needs to be to guarantee being able to contain it all.

Furthermore, the air in the pipe will dissolve in the water over a month or so and thus the system would need some means of relenishing the air.

The bottom line is that allowing for tolerances, your PRV is not guaranteed NOT to open even when heating from 20 to 60 degC. It probably will open. From 10 to 70 degC it will definitely open. A single vessel to do both jobs is a compromise and will never be perfect. To optimise it (it can never be perfect) requires careful measurements of all the pump's pressures and the real heating range and the adjusting of the pump's cut-out pressure. Even then, there is no guarantee the PRV will not open.

Rearranging the equation and assuming that the PRV pressure is 42psi as measured on a gauge (but actually 57psi absolute pressure; ie: 42 + 1 atmosphere, where 1 atmosphere = 15psi)

The pressure inside the vessel will therefore rise to 45 x 3.3 = P2 x 2.4 = 62 psia = 47 psig which will cause the PRV to open (assuming it's a normal 42psig type).

Once a hot tap is opened of course, the excess expansion pressure is released and the expansion vessel has no role to play unless the water is reheated and expands further.

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Just to be clear, an accumulator stores pressure to stop pump cycling, an expansion vessel prevents pressure relief valve weeping due to hydraulic locking (hot water expanding). If a non return valve is fitted then an 'expansion vessel' fits between NRV and PRV. If no NRV then accumulator acts as expansion vessel also.

I know Chris argued strongly that the maths and physics show that what I have was not sufficient, (5 litre EV with 55 litre calorifier), but in practice I've not seen anything come through the PRV yet. Several others claimed the same for EVs that Chris would say are not large enough.

Furthermore, the air in the pipe will dissolve in the water over a month or so and thus the system would need some means of relenishing the air.

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The precise "maffs" is as follows and utilises Boyle's Law of gases where P1 x V1 = P2 x V2 where P1 and P2 are the expansion vessel pressure before and after water expansion and V1 & V2 are the volumes of air inside the expansion vessel before and after water expansion. Pressures must be input as absolute pressures not gauge pressures (absolute pressure = gauge pressure + 1 atmosphere where 1 atmosphere = 15psi). So 12psig = 27psia and 30psig = 45psia

Once a hot tap is opened of course, the excess expansion pressure is released and the expansion vessel has no role to play unless the water is reheated and expands further.

So the water expands up into the EV from the domestic side without being refreshed. Surely this creates the effects of a dead leg.

Chris will tell you what the maths indicates though, I feel sure - probably more than 10 litres, I'm guessing, (if you can fit it in !).

I'm not exactly clear what you mean......... water is incompressible, so having an extra length section won't accomodate any expansion.

This caused me some worry when I fitted out our new boat.... in the end I copied what was on the last one as it seemed to work.

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If you hear thumping or vibrating coming from your walls, your pipes may be experiencing high water pressure. Catching this before the pipes begin leaking is crucial in preventing water from damaging the interior of your home. However, loud pipes are not a clear-cut sign of a bad pressure regulator. Many factors, such as new appliances, solenoid valves, and a bad expansion tank, can contribute to noisy pipes. If your home’s pipes are making noise, listen for the noise next to your regulator. If the noise is noticeably louder, your PRV is most likely at fault.

The point I am trying to make (not very successfully) is that if an accumulator is big enough it can and does serve both purposes

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You could of course fit two smaller ones, we have 2 x 5lt with 2 x 50lt calorifiers and works very well, ages before pump cuts in (and ages before it cuts out!)

Of course. That's why I said above, viz: "using one tank to try to do both jobs also means that one cannot fit an NRV between the calorifier and the cold water supply"

PS: Note that in the next post I show that an expansion vessel needs to be set ABOVE the pump's cut-out pressure, so an accumulator and an expansion vessel use widely differing set pressures. Trying to use one vessel to do both is a very poor compromise.

I'd have thought the only thing that should be forcing water into them is expansion as the hot water heats. Other than when you first open a tap, and this gets pushed out, I'd then expect them to stay full of air, and that to only be replaced by water if you got into another heating, and hence expansion cycle.

The pressure inside the expansion vessel needs to be ABOVE the pump's cut-off pressure (typically ~30psi) otherwise the pump itself will pump up the expansion vessel's diaphragm and thereby waste some of the effective volume which could have beem used for hot water expansion.

Replacing a water pressure regulator is a simple task. Regulators from the same manufacturer do not typically change in size over time, so purchasing the same brand as the old regulator should ensure a proper fit. You can replace your regulator with these simple steps:

Only joking (half) but it does semm that Chris W was working out the pressure settings rather than the volume? I need to order one in the next couple of days as it one of my next jobs.

Why would an expansion tank have anything to do with the capacity of colorifier? Unless as other have stated you are talking about an accumulator.

With the pump cut-off, if the water is heated from 20degC to 60degC, the water will expand by 1.44% (from water expansion tables) or 0.9 litres.

If your water pressure is too high or low and you already have a PRV in place, you may simply need to adjust it to the correct pressure. To adjust your water pressure regulator, follow the steps below.

I was assuming we are discussing accumulators, tho expansion vessel was quoted so perhaps I have got the wrong end of stick (again) If we isolate one accumulator, pump off time is approx halved, with two it's handy in the night if one wants a drink/handwash

If you are installing a regulator in a home that does not already have one, the steps for installation are more complicated. Unless you are experienced with plumbing, you will want to hire a professional. Installation often involves relocating the shut-off valve of the home to create space for the regulator. If you are comfortable enough to install the regulator yourself, follow these steps:

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If the water is below 10 degrees, the pump has cut off and no water drawn off, and the calorifier heated to 65 -70 degrees, I may get a bit of leakage from the PRV, but I can live with that.

If it's an expansion vessel (hot water) rather than an accumulator (cold water) being talked about, then I'm not convinced they should be having a massive effect on pump cycling times, in the normal state of things.......

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Therefore the volume of water held in the accumulator will be 2 litres - 1.2 litres = 0.8 litres. If you have a typical 2 litre accumulator measure the water volume that comes out on turning a tap before the pump cuts-in. You will find that theory and practice agree very closely.

The point I am trying to make (not very successfully) is that if an accumulator is big enough it can and does serve both purposes

Water pressure regulators must be replaced about once every 4 to 12 years. While some PRVs may last longer than others, manufacturers recommend swapping out your regulator at least once every 5 years to prevent damage. Your home will show signs when your regulator may be failing. If you notice any of the symptoms listed below, you will want to inspect your pressure regulator and monitor it closely.

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Innisfree has confirmed his remarks actually applied to accumulator(s) fitted on the cold side, which is not what I understand OP to be talking about.

In use we are not getting warm water in cold galley tap , calorilifier(vertical) stays hot /warm for 18 hours, no signs of bacteria , pump comes on /off with about 5 second delay and prv does not release.

Rearranging the equation and assuming that the PRV pressure is 42psi as measured on a gauge (but actually 57psi absolute pressure; ie: 42 + 1 atmosphere, where 1 atmosphere = 15psi)

My gut feel is that even if the science says otherwise, an EV that's at least 10% of your calorifier(s) will generally be enough. So with 80 litres total, I think you'll get away with an 8 litre EV. They are getting quite big, by 8 litres.

It comes up every time, but always in the context of "I don't know but I've heard it can happen". You don't get a problem in the hot pipes, which constantly heat up and cool down, nor at the warm interface between hot and cold, wherever it might be. I most strongly suspect it's another urban muyth - but I'm sure it will keep on coming up, time and time again.

The calorifer can then heat from about 20 degrees say up to bout 60 degrees with the expansion being taken up by the accumulator and the PRV doesn't release. Of course drawing off a little water takes out some of the expansion and allows more expansion to occur if the water heats further.

Leaky pipes are caused by high water pressure, but you may notice a leaky pipe before you see high water pressure coming from a fixture. High water pressure wears down pipes over time, eventually causing them to crack in some places. A leaky pipe can be a sign that your pressure regulator has failed to lower the pressure of incoming water. The first leak will likely form at the regulator itself, so checking for pooling water under your regulator can help you identify a problem early. If you notice a bad PRV too late, your home can experience costly water damage.

So if we assume that there is 2 litres of expanded water and an 8 litre expansion vessel, the volume of air after expansion will be 6 litres.

I'm not exactly clear what you mean......... water is incompressible, so having an extra length section won't accomodate any expansion.

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PS. I suspect the position of the accumulator might be a factor... does it help if it is downstream of a tap rather than upstream and beside the pump?

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Think about it - water will expand by around 3% over the range of temperatures which we find on a boat. The larger the calorifier the larger the volume therefore of expanded water.

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So the volume of water delivered from your accumulator before the pump cuts in will be the difference in the air volume = 4.2 - 3.3 = 0.9 litres

The Watts lead-free pressure regulators are excellent regulators for any home. They effectively protect your home’s plumbing from high incoming water pressure. They are constructed with a lead-free brass body and feature a reinforced diaphragm for protection against high temperatures. They come in both ¾” and 1”, giving you sizing options that will fit your home’s existing plumbing.

My cold feed into bottom of cal. is fed from a tee which also goes to cold taps, cal hot water expands back to tee and therefore taps, this cold feed is lengthened to accomodate enough hot water before it reaches the tee. Has been successful for our setup. Hope I have explained clearly.

I'm equally sure that you can't get hot water coming out of your cold taps (as has been suggested in the past) although clearly it would be possible for the expanding water to drive some warmth back down the cold feed pipe if you were to open a cold tap that was very near to the hot tank. However the amount would almost always be negligible and usually zero; we've certainly never had any warm water from any of our cold taps.

If the water is heated instead from 10degC to 70degC, the expansion is 2.2% or 1.3 litres. Therefore the air volume will decrease from 3.3 litres to 2 litres

Homeowners often notice low water pressure when it affects their household fixtures like weak showerheads and faucets, but high water pressure can often be overlooked. Not only is high water pressure less noticeable to the eye than low water pressure, but it is far more costly if it persists over time. A water pressure regulator is a device that prevents high water pressure from wreaking havoc on your home’s plumbing. With a working pressure regulator in place, you can have peace of mind knowing that your pipes and appliances are protected. In this article, you can find information on what pressure regulators are, how they work, how to install one, how much they cost, and which regulator is best for your home.

An accumulator must be pressure set BELOW the pump's cut-in pressure (this is typically around 15psi). If not, one is not maximising the volume of water that can be held in the accumulator before the pump cuts-in. For space reasons below a sink, a typical accumulator is usually around 2 litres in size. The typical pump's cut-out pressure is around 30psi.

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Only joking (half) but it does semm that Chris W was working out the pressure settings rather than the volume? I need to order one in the next couple of days as it one of my next jobs.

Of course. That's why I said above, viz: "using one tank to try to do both jobs also means that one cannot fit an NRV between the calorifier and the cold water supply"